The Future of Graphene

JAMES BAKER

So graphene is often referred to as a 2D material. It's got length and breadth, but one atomic layer thick. So what does it look and feel like under a microscope? It looks a bit like a flake of sugar. Almost colourless. It's 98% transparent. It looks like a small flake of material. But if you get down to high enough resolution with an electron microscope, it would almost look like chicken wire.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

From mobile phones to aeroplanes, even biomedicine. Graphene is connected to so many parts of our lives, without us even realising it. In the last 20 years, this wonder material has transformed not just our way of life, but how we create. Can graphene truly live up to this disruptive potential and reshape our futures for the better?

In this episode, we are joined by Professor of Practice and CEO of Graphene at Manchester, James Baker. Together, we delve into the wide range and uses of graphene.

JAMES BAKER

How do you use this material in my light-weighted car? My quicker charging, longer lasting battery?

GEORGE IMAFIDON

How it can surprise us in our everyday lives.

JAMES BAKER

One of the latest papers out of Manchester is 2D water. Where you can get a slice of water that behaves differently to water in its normal form.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

And feeds into our circular economy.

JAMES BAKER

I've even got one partner in the GEIC who are using zero cement, zero water concrete. So actually taking waste plastic and upcycling that to a construction material. I've got other partners who are taking waste product and making them into housing. So we're now seeing many use cases where graphene is starting to make a real difference.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

So join us as we ask, is graphene really the future? James, lovely to meet you. And when it comes to graphene, make us excited.

JAMES BAKER

So I'm Professor James Baker, the Chief Executive of Graphene at Manchester, based here at the University of Manchester. The graphene was first isolated here in Manchester in 2004. Two scientists who took some sticky tape and some graphite. And if you peel the sticky tape over and over many, many times, you can isolate a single atomic layer of carbon. So what is graphene? It's got length, it's got breadth, but at one atomic layer thick, it's a so-called 2D material. So why is that exciting? If you then start to measure that material, it has fantastic properties. 200 times stronger than steel, more conductive than copper, and it can act as a perfect membrane to allow some molecules to pass through but to block others. So that's really the start of the story that the two scientists received the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2010, and today there are now over 150 of these 2D materials. But the exciting bit’s less about the science, more about the applications. How do you use this material in my light-weighted car, my quicker charging, longer lasting battery, or in concrete that's more environmentally sustainable? So as well as the science here in Manchester, we're now developing many products and applications involving graphene and 2D materials.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

Why do we need a national graphene institute?

JAMES BAKER

So one of the challenges we're facing around graphene and 2D materials is it can take many years from discovery through to products or applications. So if you take carbon fibre as an example, it was over 25 years from discovery through to the first products in the marketplace. And now carbon fibre at 60 years old is only just finding its way from aerospace to Formula One into broader application. So with graphene following the discovery in 2004, the Nobel Prize in 2010, we were fortunate to get funding for not one, but two graphene institutes. One called the National Graphene Institute based in Manchester, which is very much around the science. But our second facility, the Graphene Engineering Innovation Center, is really about working with industry to accelerate the adoption of Graphene and 2D materials into products and applications. And Graphene at 20 years young is actually now already starting to find its way into many products and applications. The GEIC is also creating new businesses and also existing businesses that can enhance their products using Graphene and 2D materials. In the last 10 years alone, there's been over 55 new businesses created in Manchester looking to exploit these new graphene and 2D materials. So really exciting times to build not just the science, but to create the products, the jobs, the new businesses and the factories building these products in the future.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

I've read so much about graphene, one fun fact, and you mentioned it earlier, was around an individual sheet being 200 times stronger than an equally thin piece of steel and one million times thinner than the diameter of a single human hair. Yet it's still lightweight, still flexible, which all sounds super impressive, but could you explain what graphene actually is from your perspective?

JAMES BAKER

So one of the challenges we have with graphene is as a small micron piece, it has these fantastic properties. So it's a form of carbon. But it is a form of carbon as 2D that's very different to 3D. So as 2D, as you described, it's stronger than steel. But if you just stack it up into something practical, it becomes 3D and becomes graphite again. So really the challenge is how do you extract these wonderful properties as 2D into something pragmatic that's 3D. So what we're doing here in the Institute and the GEIC is really working with industry to add graphene as an example into a polymer or into a coating or into a battery to enhance the performance. And unfortunately, you're not going to get 200 times stronger than steel in a practical application. But already people are putting graphene into polymers to improve the strength. And what's really exciting about that is not only means you can use less material, so it's lower cost. So again, this is a myth that we're slaying now that in the early days people saw graphene as expensive, it was a black gold, it was going to be very prohibitive to use. People could now add a very, very small amount to start making a significant amount of difference. Even more exciting from my view, we're all being driven by reducing carbon dioxide and emissions in the global warming race. People have started to find ways of adding graphene into waste material or even getting graphene from waste material. So an example of that is methane CH4. You can convert methane, which is a waste gas often, into hydrogen, which is a fuel, and the carbon graphene, which you can then add into your polymers or your concrete or your coatings to really make a difference. So we're starting to really realise this circular economy. But at the science level, graphene has got these unique properties as this 2D material. And it's not just mechanical strength, it also improved conductivity. And that's the sort of work we do at the National Graphene Institute and the GEIC, working with academia to understand the new generation of materials and then working with industry to convert those materials into real value added products and applications. Concrete is a great example. Cement contributes between 8 and 10% of CO2 emissions around the world. If we could reduce even by 10, 20% the amount of cement in our concrete, we would have a global reduction in CO2 of around 2%, which is what many of our targets are trying to achieve. I've even got one partner in the GEIC who are using zero cement, zero water concrete. So actually taking waste plastic and upcycling that into a construction material. I've got other partners who are taking waste product and making them into housing. So affordable housing using plastic waste that have stronger walls that have improved insulation, but also a flame retardant. So they're less likely to catch fire. So we're now seeing many use cases where graphene is starting to make a real difference. It's producing new papers, new publications, new 2D materials. You know, one of the latest papers out of Manchester is 2D water, where you can get a slice of water that behaves differently to water in its normal form. So some really exciting science, but also some really exciting new businesses and applications using that material to make a difference.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

There's so much that you shared there, James, in terms of the opportunities and possibilities that are on the horizon. Is there anything else that is distinctive for, you know, graphene in terms of the material that you haven't shared just yet?

JAMES BAKER

So for me, one of the exciting things about graphene is there are lots of near term applications that are quite simple. So things like packaging, shoes, lightweighting of structures, and that's happening now. If I look slightly longer term, there's some also very disruptive things, for example, in healthcare. So in Manchester later this year, there's actually going to be some trials of putting graphene into the brain that can re-stimulate after a stroke, as an example. But also electronics. One of the challenges we have in the early days, there was a lot of hype around graphene replacing silicon for electronics. So your mobile phone would have a touchscreen that's bendy. You could fold your phone up. You could put it in your pocket. You could stitch it into your skin. Now that's still not here today, but increasingly it's getting closer. Companies are now finding ways of producing these single sheets of graphene at volume, getting them at a higher quality. So yeah, there's lots of things taking place. I think the exciting things in the near term are driven by sustainability. There's circular economy, recycling, using waste material and making them into value added. But longer term, you're into things like medical, into new forms of batteries.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

Next, I would love to actually speak about some of the practical limitations. In 20 years, it seems like we've really exploited this wonder material. So what are some of the difficulties and challenges that you're currently encountering or the start-ups you're working with are currently encountering when it comes to the use of graphene?

JAMES BAKER

So the GEIC operates around an innovation model that we measure in days and weeks rather than months and years. So we've got to think differently the way we operate, not work traditionally. The supplier graphene was a barrier in the early days because sticky tape is a great story, but you need lots of sticky tape and people to make even a hundred grams. So we had to overcome the challenge of supply chain and today we're in a lot better position than we were as little as three years ago. But other barriers remain regulation, certification. I haven't talked much about aircraft, but aircraft is a huge opportunity. Put graphene in the wing of my aircraft, I could make it lighter. I could de-ice the wing. I could achieve something called lightning strike protection. So when you get struck by lightning, it dissipates the energy. I could make my wing into an energy storage device. I could make it into a sensor. So I could be really disruptive in aerospace, but aerospace regulation certification approval is very slow. So it takes many years in aerospace to get a new product or a new material adopted because of the risk averse nature of aerospace as an example. Things that don't fly are generally quicker on regulation. But a key barrier is regulation. The other key barrier that we have faced is cost. People have perceived the new material as risk and cost. So to change from your existing material, you have to change tooling, you have to change processes, maybe skills. You have to invest in that. And if it takes a long time, you know, general cost of living, it's been difficult to get industry to change. But that's why I've taught a few case studies where people are now seeing if they can use 30% less material, but it's lower energy cost. And again, just to give you one case study on concrete, not only can you use less cement, so there's less CO2 and there's less cost, graphene-enhanced concrete cures quicker. You can get concrete that cures within 12 hours rather than 28 days. So if you can do that, you can start to do your operations very differently. You don't have to wait for the concrete to cure before you do the next operation. So people are now seeing the benefits, not just in terms of the performance, but in terms of lower cost. So I think some of the barriers we still have are the perception that graphene is expensive, it's costly, it's going to add cost to my process. If I can use existing tools, existing skills, existing processes at lower cost and lower energy costs with a higher performing product, we're starting to see that traction really take off now.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

We've heard a lot of potential limitations and you spoke about the environment and the circular economy, but some research has found that graphene oxide nanoparticles are very mobile in streams and lakes, which can sometimes have a negative impact on the environment if they are released, as well as a negative impact on human health. So what are your thoughts on some of these environmental concerns around the use of graphene and anything that we can actually do about that?

JAMES BAKER

So graphene is a form of carbon, first of all. Although we say it was isolated in 2004, carbon's not a new material. You know, carbon's in the air, carbon dioxide is in your body. It's in the ground in the form of graphite. So carbon as carbon is not a new material and it's well understood and well known. Graphene as a single layer...again, what's quite exciting for me as I touched on a little bit earlier is some of the biomedical applications involving graphene. So as part of that, graphene in the brain, graphene in the body, graphene in drug delivery, there's quite a lot of studies going on around toxicology and actually graphene oxide that you just touched on, the university, not on its own, but working, I think it was with Edinburgh University and the Health and Safety Executive, recently published a study around graphene oxide in the body. And were able to demonstrate there was no impact from inhaling or breathing graphene oxide in the body. So my answer to your question is there's an increasing amount of evidence, an increasing amount of research that shows that graphene and different forms of graphene are generally safe. But I'd also put some caution out there because we've also learned in the past carbon nanotubes, some of the manufacturing processes for producing them, it's not necessarily the carbon that's unsafe, but there may be some metals contained within that that are harmful to the body or harmful to the stream. So it might not be the carbon or the graphene oxide, but it might be one of the other metals that are in the process for producing it. You can go home and you can mix graphene and you can play around in your kitchen, but I wouldn't encourage that. I would encourage you to engage with something like the GEIC. You know, we have environmental controls, we have walk-in fume huts, everything's done in a controlled environment. Not because we're handling a small amount of graphene, but on an industrial scale, we're going to start to handle graphene by the kilo, by the ton. So we want a process that is inherently safe.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

As we close, I've got so many insights. There's nothing that I don't believe I can add graphene to at this point. So where do you see graphene going in the future? Do you think that will actually live up to this disruptive potential and do the benefits at the moment really outweigh the negatives?

JAMES BAKER

Yeah, I mean, I'm clearly a strong believer in graphene. I joined the university 10 years ago with my motto personally is ‘make a difference’. And you couldn't get anything more potential around making a difference. And I think the vision I used in the early days was a graphene straw. Imagine if you could have a graphene straw where you could put into dirty contaminated salty water to get drinking water. What a difference that would make around the world. Now that's a little bit visionary practicality, I'll get shot down for saying, how do you make a graphene straw? But what you're seeing now are people are making simple membranes for doing - not desalination today - but taking salts or taking plastic waste out of contaminated water. Or they're extracting salts for batteries out of brine or from saline solutions. We're working on a project around desalination. It's still quite early stage. We'll be in trials in the next 12, 18 months. So we're really starting to bring to life as an example, this desalination. Yeah, you're seeing simple things today and one of the challenges we have is ‘graphene the wonder material’. People expected it to be wonder material after two years or three years. And it takes a little bit of time as I've talked about, but you're now starting to see those real examples. And for me, when you see water, again, another partner I've touched on is making hydroponics for growing food. So instead of peat, you can plant your seeds in a hydrogel that slowly releases water and nutrients. That's much more efficient and traditional ways of growing food. That means you can start growing tomatoes in your house, in your flats, in your indoor structure, as well as improving yields and quality of food from traditional agriculture. And again, that company is scaling up. They'll sell product, they've got information on the website. You can buy the product. You can even sprinkle a little bit of material into your plant pot when you go on a holiday for three weeks. So your plants don't die while you're on vacation and you can buy this product today. So again, it's an example where you start to see these products hit the marketplace to make a real difference.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

For all of our plant lovers, you know exactly what to do. That was a plug for the product. But no, absolutely love this conversation. Love to finally get to have a conversation with you, James, and learn about the future of graphene, but also how far we've come in the past 20 years since, you know, that sticky tape method, it’s been a phenomenal journey so far. And I'm excited. I would love to come over to, you call it graphene city? Is it graphene city?

JAMES BAKER

Yeah, so graphene city again, it's what we're trying to create. It's not just about the university. It's creating the companies, the ecosystem where people, I mean, if you come to Manchester I think you can actually buy graphene coffee and graphene cake. It's not graphene, but they're leveraging off the graphene brand, if you like. But for me, we want not just academia, we want industry to be here, to be working here, to be creating jobs. I mentioned everything from growing plants to housing to concrete. They're all based here in Manchester, so again, we're starting to see this ecosystem really starting to grow and expand.

GEORGE IMAFIDON

I absolutely loved that conversation with James today. And I've never met someone so passionate and enthusiastic about graphene in my life. The concrete example alone that James shared had me excited about the impact that this material can have on the environment and cut down that 8% that concrete currently contributes. So if we've achieved all of this in 20 years and we're able to get around some of the regulations, I'm excited to see what the future holds for graphene. You've been listening to Create The Future, a podcast from The Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering and Peanut and Crumb. This episode was presented by me, George Imafidon, and produced by Tess Davidson. If you enjoyed this episode, and want to find out more, follow QEPrize on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Thanks for listening and see you next time.